UPDATE: SANE SERVICES

Thanks @tyme for the update. 😊

I welcome the interconnection between the forum and other SANE services for the staff. I do have one question though - if/when someone contacts SANE about a non-forum service/advice, will the staff be aware of our forum profile/interactions (eg via real name, email or phone number on forum profile)? Or is that only if we were to disclose it by choice (eg for follow-up support on-forum by SANE PSW)?

I can see both positive and negative sides of this, which is why i am curious to know. 😊

Thanks for your question @AlwaysMyself ,

When someone contacts SANE via other SANE services (besides forums), we have a system that will provide some identifying information e.g. phone number

At this stage, the system does not link directly to the forums. If we wanted to cross-reference, and had an email address, we could do a search. 

If the person offers their forums username, we may record it as part of notes.

Other than that, for now, there is no direct link - however, this may change in the future.

@tyme 

With the team expanding and further integration of staff does that mean we will have a greater number of PSW's on shorter shifts/less forum time?

I kinda foresee that as psw start working across different services and are pulled away from the forums, we will see less and less of them, less interaction and more moderators lurking in the background popping up when people do the wrong thing. 

I have felt less and less connected here since all the other changes. At the risk of offending and annoying people … nope shut up bow 

that’s all I’ll say. 

Nope @Bow Do not shut up - I feel the same and my lack of involvement since the changes has primarily been because of such changes. They were supposed to make the forums more accessible and user friendly however, in my opinion, it has been the exact opposite ....not sure how a new co-design will change that as the last consultation was extensive yet very little we (as a group) discussed/suggested was adopted. It seems like a waste of time (and money) doing that again as the outcome will most likely be the same 😢

Just a few days ago, or maybe a week, I posted that I was in a bit of distress and was having dark thoughts. Not one moderator or PSW checked in with me at any time. So what are these new moderators for exactly? In some ways, when I joined the forums in 2017, members took great care of one another through mutual support. Like others, I feel much less connected than I did previously, and I have only stayed due to the beautiful friends I made at the beginning. 

The forums seem more confusing than ever, more diluted and less user-friendly. I understand that with growth comes change, which I am not against if it is helpful. But I don't really find these forums much help; it's the connections to others that have been beneficial.

Hey there @Sans911,

I'm sorry to hear that you haven't felt supported on the forums when you posted a few days ago 😞 It can already feel difficult to open up, and not feeling like you were seen or heard, wouldn't have helped the already heavy feelings that you were experiencing that time.

Change can be uncomfortable, and it's understandable if you're feeling that these changes has made the forums a lot less friendly and approachable for you. Connections definitely matter, and it's important to us that you continue to feel welcomed in this space!

We're always happy to hear any suggestions our members might have so that the growth of the forum doesn't feel confusing or unfriendly 🌼 You can email us at team@saneforums.org, so that we can work with you directly with any suggestions you might have and to also give us a feedback with your recent experience, so we can improve.

I know you're sticking around for the friends that you've made at the beginning, but thank you for still being here so that we can get another chance to support you!

Take care!

@tyme or whomever is collecting feedback about forums..
Things I have found that affect the forums utility:.

1.. IT problems - getting multiple 403 Forbidden pages is annoying for anyone, when you are distressed it feels prohibitive. I have had multiple occasions where I have had up to 6 attempts to connect that has resulted in up to 45mins of not being able to connect 

2.. Communication - users need to be aware of what is happening when there are changes. Or immediately when there is a problem like the Forbidden problem - a spotlighted post needs to go up. This has improved, but could be better

3.. Allocation of PSW resources across the forums seems uneven. Others have mentioned this as well. 

Agree with your points @Till23 

this ongoing issue with the forbidden error can add additional distress, especially when reaching out for support and you get this error. Like you said, the time that you get locked out can be lengthy and while logically you know it’s an IT issue, it’s not nice being told you are forbidden. 
I’ve also had email notifications issues for a while now. I won’t get any at all for days and then I’ll suddenly get days worth come flooding in. Then back to nothing. It’s very difficult to feel connected, get support and participate in the forums when you don’t get these notifications. 
Im sure SANE spends big $$$ for their IT supports so you’d want to be making sure things are working properly. 

and yes, the allocation of psw and other staff is very uneven. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve posted reaching out for support and I’ve just been ignored. 
do I dare say that, as these new programs and services have been added to SANE’s services, resources have been pulled from the forums and the once operational helpline and webchat. 
just my thoughts.

Hey @Till23 and others,

Thank you for your feedback. It is very much appreciated. If there is anything else that pops up for you, please do not hesitate to let us know.

@tyme - just wondering if my post got lost as your language in your most recent post felt like a "closing" to me.

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@avant-garde wrote:

@tyme 

With the team expanding and further integration of staff does that mean we will have a greater number of PSW's on shorter shifts/less forum time?

---

Hey @avant-garde ,

Thank you for reaching out and clarifying. Good to see you here.

As for your question, I really don't have an answer yet. Rosters etc are still a work in progress.

I hear your concerns though and want to thank you for raising them. Please continue to share any feedback that you have which can hopefully help shape any future changes.

Also, I should apologise that my recent post sounded 'closed'. I think I've been away 5 weeks and still catching up! I have to say though, I'm so glad to be back here 🙂 Missed you all.

@tyme 

I've been a bit scared to post... I put in a complaint this morning because my posts have repeatedly disappeared to "editing" with no follow up with the first and 12 hours with the second to have no edits needed anyway...

I don't like it and it makes me really distressed

It had me wondering what the deal is with mods and the emails, like, what happens when a post gets marked for guideline breach and what is the timeframe for responses as to why.

Hrmm... Thank you for putting in the feedback and complaint. I'll look into it. Sorry this is so distressing for you. 

Do you know whether the posts have disappeared because of moderator actions or whether it is a tech issue? @avant-garde 

Once again, I'm so so sorry this is so distressing for you at this time.

@tyme 

The first I figured tech, the second I'm not so sure. 

Both have appeared in editing

I provided links to both in the form

I figured if it was tech others might be experiencing it too

Thank you for letting me know. I've emailed you about it and hopefully we come find a resolution! Once again, we are sorry for the stress this has caused @avant-garde 

The website doesn't yet reflect the changes

My local MP referred me to the support line, since it's still listed as a crisis line in places. When it hasn't been that for several months

It sounds like the recovery club and guided recovery tabs need updating too

With no response @Bow  Im guessing so!

This post was actually 'auto-moderated' @Bow so I do very much apologise that no one has responded to you. 

We are definitely in an adjustment period at the moment and it will take time for our new mods to get to the point where they can fly through everything lickety split like the longer-term mods are able to. Like modding a post might take me 30s but a new moderator 5 min. It all adds up!! 

Appreciate that change is scary, that you are potentially even feeling some grief over it. That is so valid, and it will probably take time before things feel like they're in rhythm again. We hear you 💜

What is meant by 'auto-moderated' @Jynx That says to me that some posts are therefore not even seen by mods and therein lies more issues ...safety, connection, the dismal triage system, people not being responded to nor seen....

I do not mean any disrespect by this but saying - "Appreciate that change is scary, that you are potentially even feeling some grief over it" - is being presumptuous. @Bow @Captain24, myself and others here are querying the presence of staff (mods/PSWs/etc) across the forums and if the proposed changes will mean a decline in their presence. I, also, have had posts not responded to and it makes one feel unseen and unheard.

Yeah my post.. my question wasn’t even answered though @Jynx  i appreciate that it takes time for moderators to be trained and as you said ‘get to the point where they fly through everything lickety split’, but there is a very big difference in regards to presence, interactions, support and connection between moderators and peer support workers. 

there has been hardly anyone around in recent weeks. The forums no longer feel like a safe place.

who's grand plan was this?

Hey @Bow @Zoe7 I really appreciate you both being able to provide this feedback of how these changes have felt for you and other members of the community. Of course any change is going to be difficult, but I think it's so important to be aware of how you guys are impacted. With rosters and training of new staff being an ongoing process, being able to hear what is and is not working for the community is valuable and valid information 

It's hard for us to have answers while the rosters are still being worked out and staff are still being trained, though I wish I did have some for you right now. I think feedback like this might even shape some of the answers, so again, please continue to share as you're able.

Wanted to share a few thoughts on how things have been on the forums. I'm aware that things are still in the process of changing but I have a few concerns myself about the interim.

There's no doubt that the lack of presence of the PSW's is having an impact on the community and its actually heartbreaking to both see and feel it. I understand this space is designed to be peer-to-peer support which is fine but not everyone here has the capacity to both manage their own mental health struggles aswell as being able to support others thus i feel it's leaving it to those few regulars that are able to, to support as many people as they can even while they are struggling themselves. 

I myself have had no interaction with a PSW for some time now and whilst I understand why, it doesn't change how much it hurts and how it makes one feel, unseen, unheard and insignificant. I know it's not the intentions of SANE but it really does feel like the forums and the wonderful community here are very much being neglected at the moment during this process of change. 

Please know that i don't mean any disrespect by this post, I'm just sharing things from my own perspective. If anything needs to be changed or removed please let me know, I don't want to get in trouble for this post. 

Thank you @MissGremlin I really appreciate you taking the time share this 💜

Well said @MissGremlin  👏🏻 

I feel really bad and guilty and that I do not have a right to … complain and provide any feedback because this is a service that I’m not paying to use. I often feel like it’s simple a matter of like it or leave. 

but when it has been something that I and many others have heavily relied on, I feel I need to provide this feedback. 

im finding now and a lot of times in the past that sane has not always been transparent about things, about changes. They just kinda get thrown at us and we just have to deal with them. For instance the closer of the helpline. It just disappeared with zero consultation. 

I understand sane received grants last year I think? I can’t really remember what they were for? but perhaps for all the other services? Recovery program and group? Was there any funding for the forums? Cause I wonder what happens is sane gets funding for programs and then other services suffer as a result 

I think some transparency moving forward would be really helpful. I think a question that a lot are wanting answers to is will the forums be primarily moderated by moderators and not psw?

Thankyou @Bow.

There's so much i want to say in response to what you've said here but i do need to pause and take my time to focus rather than just saying what first comes to my mind. I agree with alot of what you have said and I will reply soon. 

This service and the community is still amazing but yes there needs to be transparency moving forward. 

Hi @Bow

We appreciate you taking time to share your experience.  We want to reassure you that you absolutely do have the right to offer feedback regardless of whether the service is paid or not. The forums exist because people like you rely on them, and your perspective is important.

We hear your concerns particularly regarding service changes happen which can be unsettling when this space is such a key source of support.

SANE forums remain a valued and important part of SANE’s work.

Thank you again for raising this so thoughtfully. If you’d like your feedback to be formally reviewed, you’re welcome to share it via our Feedback and Complaints process, and we can help with that if needed. Here is the link https://www.sane.org/about-us/policies/feedback-and-complaints-policy.

Please know that your voice is supported and welcome on SANE forums.

Take care,
AltZing-Connect

I'm glad people are voicing their concerns here & via feedback; I think that is healthy and important. One thing I remember from my business management studies was how it is such a small percentage of people who will give feedback - the "tip of the iceberg". Most people who have a dissatisfactory experience will just walk away without saying anything, and then there is no chance for the organisation to understand why or what needs to be changed.

I have also been pondering over the weeks the 'role' of the forums and the staff. I know the mods help review posts & help provide safety-checks (especially overnight). But the role of the PSW I feel increasingly less sure about and I know I mentioned this on the "would SANE consider" thread 😊 so i won't repeat myself.

So I've found myself going back to the "welcome" post pinned to the forum for new members. But I realise that isn't very much an IT "how to use", not a "What is this forum?" thread. I find myself wondering if it is meant to be a "people with poor MH supporting others with poor MH", or whether its meant to be a "peer support workers are here to support you with your MH, and you can meet others with MH challenges too which you can form connection with and they may also be able to support your in addition to PSW when you are having difficult times".  I think @MissGremlin put it really well about how hard it can be to support other friends here when you're having your own difficult time, but at the same time not wanting to "let them down" by not being able to support them because of the reduced capacity-per-active-user of PSW. I've had to put myself first and not check forums when I need time for myself if I am not doing well, but it breaks my heart to see that sometimes during those times my friends have had a really acute moment and needed support but no one (or very few people) have been able to be there at that time. And that's where I really see the benefit of the rostered staff - to help support people when no one else is around to support them, or their needs are too great for other users to support them.

I find myself questioning "what is 'complex' mental health?" With complex being the key word there. Because by nature complex MH is often something people need a lot of insight or training to support, I would have thought. I can help support people with things that I have experienced, or things I have read about. But it can be more traumatic for people to have to explain things to me where i don't already know intuitively (not my experience area) -- even though I really want to help support them and I see that others have not yet been available to.

I wonder how much of this situation has been caused by poor change management. Especially in the case of staggering phases - especially with staff training and onboarding. If I were managing it, I would have proposed that staff do it sequentially (not concurrently) to reduce the impact of staff absence on the forums. And likewise with onboarding of new PSW and Mods - train them up before the old ones leave (where possible), and do a continual gradual onboarding of new people spread out over time -- perhaps a maximum of 1 staff member per shift being "new" (and thus understandably slower or less experienced in supporting) so that they can receive the help from other experienced staff without it also impacting the ability of the experienced staff to still be able to provided their usual support still too. 

From what I have read, so much sounds to have been a poor implementation of changes (especially staffing and training) in a "big bang" approach rather than a gradual phasing approach.

I do strongly believe all the staff are well-intent and doing their best. And I am so grateful for that. And I hold no negativity at all to the staff. But I do hope that change-management lessons can be learnt from how much distress and impact this is causing members currently.

hugs to all my friends and other members currently struggling with things.

@MissGremlin @Bow @Flutterbug9 @Cuddlebear @Captain24 @Shaz51 and many more of you. Know that I care, regardless of whether or not I have capacity/availability to help support at the specific time. 

@AlwaysMyself  I totally agree with what you’ve said. 

@AlwaysMyself  Also, there’s just a small number of active people on forums and when we are all chronically ill it can be impossible to be there and support peers and friends without the active participation of PSW. 

It is deeply concerning that the forums have been put to the wayside. It’s causing suffering and taking away a key support for many of us. 

I have provided some feedback earlier on this thread. 

While I agree that there are some issues, one of which the - 403 Forbidden is apparently resolved.

I just wanted to say I am grateful for the support that I have received from the Peer Support Workers and Moderators. 

I am mindful that the PSWs and moderators are reading the posts on this thread (and similar ones) and are at the same time peer workers, so each have experience with MH issues themselves.

I think each PSW and moderator does their best within the constraints of the organisation.

I am aware that it can be difficult when the feedback for the organisation you work for is not positive. 

So I just wanted to say thanks to these "front facing" people, who are the ones receiving the feedback even though the issues might be outside their control.

I also thank all the forum members for the support they give to each other, including me. 

@tyme @Jynx @Ru-bee 

@AlwaysMyself   Query of PSW and Mods.  I asked the question week or 2 ago what’s the difference, who does what.  I’m still waiting for reply.

im find myself reminded of a saying some people used when I was working.  Powers-that-be make the decisions, those on the front lines deal with the impact

am grateful to the PSWs and feel sorry for them whilst they try to juggle everything at the moment

@Flutterbug9 sorry you didn't get an answer to this earlier! PSWs typically have a more active role, they will likely take on mod responsibilities as well as providing more peer support and wanting to encourage community engagement by starting new threads or just by being involved in the conversations. Moderation is essentially more about making sure everyone's safe, responding to risk, reaching out when members need more support. That's a bit of a broad summary to give you can idea of the difference, I hope it helps!

@Ru-bee my question here was not answered around "auto-moderation". I am seeing this forum wide at present ie. questions asked not actually answered but the 'toeing the party line' responses instead (sometimes many days/weeks later).

Transparency has been brought up several times on this thread - something I have coninually and consistently brought up over time myself. I do know there are limits on what we are told (and need to know) however answers to the questions posed here by some members seem pretty simply to answer without going into service wide eternal details.

Equity of PSW and/or mod involvement is also a massive issue. Some members have continuous interaction and other members no response at all. This is not a training issue, this is a problem with the triage system and the time spent across the forums. It is obvious when there has been no response to a post and that is where a PSW/mod should step in to respond. It does not need to be a continuous conversation but leaving a member without any response is not okay. Why would that member feel like the forums are a supportive place if they are left 'out in the cold', by themselves, with no-one to support them. I can hear the 'this is a peer-to-peer' forum however NO-ONE should be left without ANY support and to be placing the majority of that support with a handfull of members continuously takes it away from all the other members we have here on the forums.

I understand duty of care becomes an issue also but that extends to ALL members  - especially when that time is taken away from the wider forum and the thousands of other members we have here. 

This is not about change, it is about consistency, clarity, transparency and ultimately suppport for ALL.